Chromix ICC Profiles via Polarized Light?

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    Topic: Chromix ICC Profiles via Polarized Light? Read 13466 Times
  • Elliot Puritz
    Elliot Puritz
    Silver Member
    Posts: 73
    Printing Colour Management
    on: September 28, 2020 at 5:01 pm

    Sometime back I recall Mark alluding to Chromix ICC profiles as being created using a special polarized light source. I believe-but am not sure-that Chromix alludes to the process as “Deep Color” measurement which according to Chromix might be helpful if there is loss of shadow detail when one prints using matte paper.  This Deep Color profile is said to be produced with a  “slower instrument with versatile measurement options. One of these measurement functions tends to draw all the shadow detail that is possible to achieve in a profile”.

    Some of my images look better on matte papers and I am intrigued by the claims posted by Chromix which certainly has an excellent reputation.

    I wonder if any have tried Chromix “Deep Color” profiles and if such ICC profiles deliver on the promise of increased shadow separation.

    In general, does the use of a polarized light source make a difference in ANY ICC profile?

    Mark D Segal
    Mark D Segal
    Silver Member
    Posts: 655
    Re: Chromix ICC Profiles via Polarized Light?
    Reply #1 on: September 28, 2020 at 5:08 pm

    Yes, it’s different, but how different in what ways, as usual, “it depends”. I did one review of M3 profiling some time back in this article: <span style=”font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: ‘Cambria’,serif; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: ‘Times New Roman’; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;”>: </span><span style=”font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: ‘Calibri’,sans-serif; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: ‘Times New Roman’; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;”><span style=”font-family: ‘Cambria’,serif;”>https://luminous-landscape.com/red-river-palo-duro-softgloss-palo-duro-etching-san-gabriel-baryta-paper-review/</span&gt;</span> , and I have another detailed one coming up in the near future for another Red River paper, this time a luster paper. M3 profiles are not usually offered by the printer or paper providers; Red River Paper is one exception because they have their profiles made by Chromix, who do make M3s for them. Anyhow, stay tuned for the next installment, here on PhotoPXL.

    Mark D Segal Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop". Please check the PhotoPXL Store for availability.

    Elliot Puritz
    Elliot Puritz
    Silver Member
    Posts: 73
    Re: Chromix ICC Profiles via Polarized Light?
    Reply #2 on: September 28, 2020 at 5:29 pm

    Thanks Mark.

    One of the problems possible with evaluating various ICC profiles is that many of us do not have  sophisticated measuring devices.  I have wondered if the small differences in the curves and colors that you present so elegantly consistently translate into differences that are easily seen by “neutral” observers judging a print.  I believe that most of us have shown our prints to different observers and the ability of such observers to “see” what we and other see clearly differs.  Of course, that is why one uses scientific instruments.

    Indeed,  if you print a group of images on a given paper using two different profiles ( assuming the profiles were created by experienced experts ) can you reliably parse the differences so that one might conclude the print made via profile A is “better” than the print made using profile “B”?  One would of course assume the same viewing conditions including any matts and glazing.  And of course, what is “better”!  So, are Chromix profiles superior to those made by others on this forum?

    Please note that I am NOT challenging either your known expertise or that of others, but simply wondering if the eye is capable of discerning small differences recorded by a spectrophotometer and applied by a given ICC profile.

     

    Mark D Segal
    Mark D Segal
    Silver Member
    Posts: 655
    Re: Chromix ICC Profiles via Polarized Light?
    Reply #3 on: September 28, 2020 at 8:07 pm

    You are raising the trickiest and obviously most important question about this whole business, and I go squarely into exactly that in the forthcoming article. The short answer is that graphs and numbers can give a different impression from what people may actually perceive. But it’s a nuanced story so best wait for the article.

    Mark D Segal Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop". Please check the PhotoPXL Store for availability.

    Elliot Puritz
    Elliot Puritz
    Silver Member
    Posts: 73
    Re: Chromix ICC Profiles via Polarized Light?
    Reply #4 on: September 28, 2020 at 10:09 pm

    Looking very much forward to your usual expert analysis Mark!

     

    Andrew Rodney
    Andrew Rodney
    Participant
    Posts: 294
    Re: Chromix ICC Profiles via Polarized Light?
    Reply #5 on: September 30, 2020 at 3:04 pm
    Colorimetry and the dE testing is about color perception. It is not about color appearance. The reason why viewing a print is more valid than measuring it is because measurement is about comparing solid colors. Color appearance is about evaluating images and color in context which measurement devices can’t provide. Colorimetry is about color perception. It is not about color appearance. Colorimetry was never designed as a color appearance model. It was never designed to even be used as an interchange space between device dependent color models. It’s not designed for imagery at all. Colorimetry based on solid  colors in very specific ambient and surround conditions. Anytime one speaks of color accuracy NOT pleasing color, we need a way to define accuracy numerically (otherwise, we’re back to subjectivity). That’s where colorimetry comes to play. And there are NO rules in how a perceptual rendering from a profile is produced. Just like there are no rules in how E6 rendering (Velvia vs Ektachrome) is produced. The profile maker and film manufacturer produce a rendering they feel their customers might prefer. So how to test profiles with a perceptual rendering? Subjectively with many color reference images (I’d suggest at the very least, the entire suite of Roman 16’s).

    Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

    Andrew Rodney
    Andrew Rodney
    Participant
    Posts: 294
    Re: Chromix ICC Profiles via Polarized Light?
    Reply #6 on: September 30, 2020 at 3:07 pm

    Colorimetry and the dE testing is about color perception. It is not about color appearance. The reason why viewing a print is more valid than measuring it is because measurement is about comparing solid colors. Color appearance is about evaluating images and color in context which measurement devices can’t provide. Colorimetry is about color perception. It is not about color appearance. Colorimetry was never designed as a color appearance model. It was never designed to even be used as an interchange space between device dependent color models. It’s not designed for imagery at all. Colorimetry based on solid  colors in very specific ambient and surround conditions. Anytime one speaks of color accuracy NOT pleasing color, we need a way to define accuracy numerically (otherwise, we’re back to subjectivity). That’s where colorimetry comes to play. And there are NO rules in how a perceptual rendering from a profile is produced. Just like there are no rules in how E6 rendering (Velvia vs Ektachrome) is produced. The profile maker and film manufacturer produce a rendering they feel their customers might prefer. So how to test profiles with a perceptual rendering? Subjectively with many color reference images (I’d suggest at the very least, the entire suite of Roman 16’s).

    Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

    Andrew Rodney
    Andrew Rodney
    Participant
    Posts: 294
    Re: Chromix ICC Profiles via Polarized Light?
    Reply #7 on: September 30, 2020 at 3:11 pm

    Colorimetry and the dE testing is about color perception. It is not about color appearance. The reason why viewing a print is more valid than measuring it is because measurement is about comparing solid colors. Color appearance is about evaluating images and color in context which measurement devices can’t provide. Colorimetry is about color perception. It is not about color appearance. Colorimetry was never designed as a color appearance model. It was never designed to even be used as an interchange space between device dependent color models. It’s not designed for imagery at all. Colorimetry based on solid  colors in very specific ambient and surround conditions. Anytime one speaks of color accuracy NOT pleasing color, we need a way to define accuracy numerically (otherwise, we’re back to subjectivity). That’s where colorimetry comes to play. And there are NO rules in how a perceptual rendering from a profile is produced. Just like there are no rules in how E6 rendering (Velvia vs Ektachrome) is produced. The profile maker and film manufacturer produce a rendering they feel their customers might prefer. So how to test profiles with a perceptual rendering? Subjectively with many color reference images (I’d suggest at the very least, the entire suite of Roman 16’s).

    Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

    Andrew Rodney
    Andrew Rodney
    Participant
    Posts: 294
    Re: Chromix ICC Profiles via Polarized Light?
    Reply #8 on: October 1, 2020 at 1:49 pm

    Test: I wonder if I can post here?

    Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

    Mark D Segal
    Mark D Segal
    Silver Member
    Posts: 655
    Re: Chromix ICC Profiles via Polarized Light?
    Reply #9 on: October 1, 2020 at 1:50 pm

    Yes you can.

    Mark D Segal Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop". Please check the PhotoPXL Store for availability.

    Andrew Rodney
    Andrew Rodney
    Participant
    Posts: 294
    Re: Chromix ICC Profiles via Polarized Light?
    Reply #10 on: October 1, 2020 at 1:51 pm

    OK, today it works… I was trying to state:

    Colorimetry and the dE testing is about color perception. It is not about color appearance. The reason why viewing a print is more valid than measuring it is because measurement is about comparing solid colors. Color appearance is about evaluating images and color in context which measurement devices can’t provide. Colorimetry is about color perception. It is not about color appearance. Colorimetry was never designed as a color appearance model. It was never designed to even be used as an interchange space between device dependent color models. It’s not designed for imagery at all. Colorimetry based on solid  colors in very specific ambient and surround conditions. Anytime one speaks of color accuracy NOT pleasing color, we need a way to define accuracy numerically (otherwise, we’re back to subjectivity). That’s where colorimetry comes to play. And there are NO rules in how a perceptual rendering from a profile is produced. Just like there are no rules in how E6 rendering (Velvia vs Ektachrome) is produced. The profile maker and film manufacturer produce a rendering they feel their customers might prefer. So how to test profiles with a perceptual rendering? Subjectively with many color reference images (I’d suggest at the very least, the entire suite of Roman 16’s).

    Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

    Mark D Segal
    Mark D Segal
    Silver Member
    Posts: 655
    Re: Chromix ICC Profiles via Polarized Light?
    Reply #11 on: October 10, 2020 at 10:02 am

    Looking very much forward to your usual expert analysis Mark!

     

    Elliot, thanks, the referenced article is now posted.

    Mark D Segal Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop". Please check the PhotoPXL Store for availability.

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