Creating Artistic Photographs 
Film to Digital Paradigm Shift: Part 1

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    Topic: Creating Artistic Photographs 
Film to Digital Paradigm Shift: Part 1 Read 759 Times
  • John Sadowsky
    John Sadowsky
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    New Article Announcements & Discussions
    on: April 26, 2021 at 8:14 pm

    I have to call foul here.  Alian Briot presents three pictures of the same scene.  The first two are side-by-side “raw files as processed to give a realistic look …” – what exactly is the difference between the two?  But more irritating is the final of the three images.  Again, the caption only says “processed to give a realistic look and digitally enhanced.”  I lived in the southwest for 25 years and I can tell you that that image is not a “realistic look.”  The sky color is wrong.  The rock color is wrong.  It is actually a horrible representation of a southwest scene.

    JSS

    Mark D Segal
    Mark D Segal
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    Posts: 440
    Re: Creating Artistic Photographs 
Film to Digital Paradigm Shift: Part 1
    Reply #1 on: April 26, 2021 at 8:27 pm

    I don’t even think it’s worth discussing film versus digital in 2021. And more generally speaking, we can process photos to give them pretty much whatever appearance we want – that is partly what art is all about; in any event, when it comes to landscape photography, “realistic” will never mean “accurate” in any objective sense. And what’s “realistic” to one beholder may not be to another. Any idea how much jelly can we nail to a wall?

    Mark D Segal Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop". Please check the PhotoPXL Store for availability.

    Andrew Rodney
    Andrew Rodney
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    Posts: 130
    Re: Creating Artistic Photographs 
Film to Digital Paradigm Shift: Part 1
    Reply #2 on: April 26, 2021 at 9:22 pm

    Yup, pleasing color Mark, which we both know is subjective.

    As was how we old farts handled color neg printing in the day.

    I still want to scream when people post photo comparisons of techniques and tell us “But this color is accurate”. Then I have to ask them, what’s the deltaE (pick any formula at this point) accuracy of that photo? Always silence. Oh, it’s not more accurate (to the scene of course, how else could one discuss color accuracy), it’s pleasing color. Pleasing is subjective. Accurate color is often not pleasing, but that’s a different story.

    Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

    Andrew Rodney
    Andrew Rodney
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    Re: Creating Artistic Photographs 
Film to Digital Paradigm Shift: Part 1
    Reply #3 on: April 26, 2021 at 9:32 pm

    I will agree John that at the very least, 3-B0003981-Pano-Flat-Cropped-3000_Ready_for_Web02.jpg looks very unrealistic unless perhaps under LSD (don’t ask but I have experience as a very young lad <g>) so I downloaded it assuming it was untagged and I’ve viewing on a wide gamut display. No, it’s tagged as sRGB. I don’t find any of the images pleasing, but that is utterly subjective and I’m not the image creator so the intent of the processing must be an ‘artistic’ decision.

    Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

    Kevin Raber
    Kevin Raber
    Keymaster
    Posts: 771
    Re: Creating Artistic Photographs 
Film to Digital Paradigm Shift: Part 1
    Reply #4 on: April 27, 2021 at 8:30 am

    Just for note and most know, this site like most converts images to srgb for publication.  Alian I know uses RGB and most likely ProRGB for his work.  I think we are looking at artist or creator expression.  Heck, I have been accused by some of Raberizing my images.  As I get older not so much.

    Kevin Raber
    CEO & Publisher of PhotoPXL.com and Rockhopperworkshops.com

    Alain Briot
    Alain Briot
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    Posts: 13
    Re: Creating Artistic Photographs 
Film to Digital Paradigm Shift: Part 1
    Reply #5 on: April 27, 2021 at 7:35 pm

    Below is how the photographs and captions were originally organized in the Word file I sent to Kevin. In the online version on PhotoPXL the organization is different, the photographs being shown below each other and the same caption being repeated three times.   I personally like the presentation on PhotoPXL but I wanted to show the original version here in case the presentation on PhotoPXL is confusing to some readers.

    Author of Mastering Landscape Photography and 3 other books.
    http://www.beautiful-landscape.com
    [email protected]

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 3 days ago by Alain Briot.
    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 3 days ago by Alain Briot.
    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 3 days ago by Alain Briot.
    Andrew Rodney
    Andrew Rodney
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    Posts: 130
    Re: Creating Artistic Photographs 
Film to Digital Paradigm Shift: Part 1
    Reply #6 on: April 27, 2021 at 7:39 pm

    Nothing above or in the article shows a capture “as a raw file“. All are rendered images. So this is rather confusing.

    This is what raw looks like (direct link too, because this site seems to have issues: http://www.digitaldog.net/files/raw.jpg:

    This is raw.

    Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

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    Andrew Rodney
    Andrew Rodney
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    Posts: 130
    Re: Creating Artistic Photographs 
Film to Digital Paradigm Shift: Part 1
    Reply #7 on: April 27, 2021 at 7:44 pm

    So what’s the secret trick to embed an image in a post here guys? I click on the icon (insert image)  and paste a URL, I get nothing.
    Trying again, NOT inserting dimensions, maybe…..

    Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 3 days ago by Andrew Rodney. Reason: Test for embed of images
    Alain Briot
    Alain Briot
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    Posts: 13
    Re: Creating Artistic Photographs 
Film to Digital Paradigm Shift: Part 1
    Reply #8 on: April 27, 2021 at 8:16 pm

    I uploaded the files to my server then used the links as source in the ‘Insert/Edit image’ dialog box (under the little landscape icon in the toolbar):

    Author of Mastering Landscape Photography and 3 other books.
    http://www.beautiful-landscape.com
    [email protected]

    Andrew Rodney
    Andrew Rodney
    Participant
    Posts: 130
    Re: Creating Artistic Photographs 
Film to Digital Paradigm Shift: Part 1
    Reply #9 on: April 27, 2021 at 8:27 pm

    That’s exactly what I’m doing Alain, from Safari on Mac but as you can see, nothing to view. They are JPEGs, sRGB, my FTP.

    The site is a bit buggy for me for whatever reason. I still don’t know why, despite the “keep logged in” check box, I have to often log in.

    Anyway, the URL for what a raw file actually looks like works. I think but am not sure, what you may be saying as a raw file“ is “default rendering” in “XXX” raw converter? What you are showing isn’t an image as a raw file. That would look rather ugly as seen here and here:

    http://www.digitaldog.net/files/raw.jpg

    http://www.digitaldog.net/files/ThisIsRaw.jpg

    Those are are previews of actual raw data.

    Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 3 days ago by Andrew Rodney. Reason: Test embed of images
    Andrew Rodney
    Andrew Rodney
    Participant
    Posts: 130
    Re: Creating Artistic Photographs 
Film to Digital Paradigm Shift: Part 1
    Reply #10 on: April 27, 2021 at 9:16 pm

    I meant ‘unprocessed’ and in future essays I will use this term rather than ‘raw file’.

    They are processed. They have to be or they would appear as I provided. They are perhaps processed in some raw converter with some default settings. But again, they are processed. So again, it’s confusing to say unprocessed. I’m using two special products designed to show actual raw data prior to rendering, the actual appearance of the raw data itself. In those products, indeed there is no processing, they are unprocessed, and you see what the raw data really looks like from the sensor. Yeah, it’s ugly.

    You had a raw capture. You opened it in say ACR on a virgin machine that it was just installed on. ACR processes the raw based on the default settings out of the box just to show you a preview. You click Open. You see the processed (rendered) image in Photoshop and of course it appears like the preview in ACR. The defaults may not be to your liking. You might move the various sliders. You see a different preview of the rendering if and when you let ACR render the raw and open it in Photoshop.

    So, I think again, the label you want is ‘default rendering‘ or “default settings for processing” (I prefer the term rendering), something like that. That tells your readers, you simply let the converter preview and render the raw without any input from you. Then you show the edits you provided in ACR to subjectively render the image as you wish to express it.

    One of the best articles on this idea is from Karl Lang and the sidebar about Jay Maisel is also very telling:

    http://www.lumita.com/site_media/work/whitepapers/files/pscs3_rendering_image.pdf

    As for embedding images, I give up. Maybe it’s the source (FTP) they reside but this is the only site/forum I’ve seen this issue.

    Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

    John Sadowsky
    John Sadowsky
    Participant
    Posts: 164
    Re: Creating Artistic Photographs 
Film to Digital Paradigm Shift: Part 1
    Reply #11 on: April 27, 2021 at 10:09 pm

    Since I started this shit-storm, let me restate my complaint.  We are all serious photographers.  We understand that our photos are all processed.  But to simply state “raw files as processed to give a realistic look” is bull shit!  When I see a sky that I know, when I see rocks that I know, and they don’t look the way I know they actually should look – I don’t give a damn about deltaE – it is just wrong!

    I totally appreciate surrealistic photography.  Just don’t tell us it is “processed to give a realistic look.” Our images are all processed.  Can we please be honest about that?

    JSS

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