Mark D Segal

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  • Mark D Segal
    Mark D Segal
    Silver Member
    Posts: 721
    Capture One’s NEW License Options (Terrible)
    on: January 24, 2023 at 3:02 pm

    Comparing NR (or sharpening or just about anything) with defaults between two converters doesn’t tell us much about the full capabilities of the raw processing engine or further options.

    As far as NR is concerned, well, what’s coming from Adobe should make LR/ACR users even happier; anything more said would get me in trouble.

    Ask Schewe <g>.

    Yes, your first statement, no question – that’s the way to evaluate these applications – how capable are they at taking us to our intended destination. Where they start is largely a matter of the developer’s taste reflected in initial default settings.

    Regarding the NR – thanks for heads-up. I shall be looking forward to that. Those of us doing a lot of film digitization are always interested in ways of mitigating apparent “grain” without sacrificing essential image detail. Like most others, I use noise reduction tools for that, combined with negative texture adjustments for skies; of course digital noise and film grain are visually and characteristically different, so this approach is always a kludge, but still, the better the NR algorithms, the more helpful on film.

    Mark D Segal Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop". Please check the PhotoPXL Store for availability.

    Mark D Segal
    Mark D Segal
    Silver Member
    Posts: 721
    Re: Capture One’s NEW License Options (Terrible)
    Reply #1 on: January 24, 2023 at 12:16 pm

    Fair enough Bud.

    And yes, the latest version of Lr is quite amazing. There are some GUI-related aspects of it I’d like to see improved, but the fundamental capabilities are really impressive, and I expect will only get better going forward – they’re on a roll.

    Mark D Segal Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop". Please check the PhotoPXL Store for availability.

    Mark D Segal
    Mark D Segal
    Silver Member
    Posts: 721
    Re: Capture One’s NEW License Options (Terrible)
    Reply #2 on: January 24, 2023 at 10:41 am

    Hi Bud, thanks for taking the trouble of putting up those comparisons. That’s useful, notwithstanding that such comparisons can be tricky, to make sure we have “apples to apples” so to speak. I can see from your LR screen grab that the relevant capture condition with respect to noise is ISO 400. What appears to be noise in the mid-tones and lower mid-tones for both photos is much greater than I have experienced with my Sony cameras (a6300, and a7R4), so I would not have been aware of this being a differentiating factor between applications; in that regard, it appears that your experience with noise would generally differ from mine. The C1 noise pattern definitely looks smaller and tighter than that showing from the LR screen shot, but the LR one is scaled larger, so not clear to me whether part of the difference is just the scaling. As well, the LR rendition is both a bit brighter and lower in contrast than the C1 rendition, so not surprising that there would be less suppression of apparent noise in LR. Setting those observations aside, hard for me to assess their true significance from samples in this format, it does seem at the very least C1 is giving LR a good run for its money with respect to the initial conditions in noise processing. The ultimate question, however, is that once apparent noise is equilibrated between the photos in the two applications, do they look about the same in both renditions, or does the C1 rendition preserve more better-defined image detail?

    Mark D Segal Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop". Please check the PhotoPXL Store for availability.

    Mark D Segal
    Mark D Segal
    Silver Member
    Posts: 721
    Re: Capture One’s NEW License Options (Terrible)
    Reply #3 on: January 23, 2023 at 10:32 am

    Hi Bud, thanks for the added explanation. That clarifies better what you are experiencing.

    I think the important thing about using these converters is not where they start but where, in the hands of the users, they end-up – the output quality. That’s the main target because at the end of the day looking at prints is the source of satisfaction and the use of any particular GUI to make them falls aside. Every developer will create its own set of default conditions and tools with their own metrics as the starting point of a rendition from raw zeros and ones to a usable image. Doesn’t matter. The issue is whether once we’ve adjusted the photos as best we can using the tools the results are what we want. It’s only then that we know which software brand better meets our needs, because, taking myself as an example, I have yet to open any photo in any imaging application that I have not had to adjust.

    Like Mike, when I am in Lr’s Develop module, I can select photos from the filmstrip below the image window. Depending on the size of the photo and the amount of data, it can take a second or two to clarify, but I don’t consider this an issue.

    I have not experienced Adobe’s lens profiles actually clipping image data, but I do recognize that when distortions are corrected, it may be inevitable that a bit of data could get lost at the edges simply because of the geometry of what’s going on. Not clear to me whether any software can make these kind of adjustments while retaining every last bit of edge data. The only issue I have with it is that it also makes subtle adjustments to brightness which I don’t appreciate.

    Mark D Segal Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop". Please check the PhotoPXL Store for availability.

    Mark D Segal
    Mark D Segal
    Silver Member
    Posts: 721
    Re: Epson P800: papers with strong longevity?
    Reply #4 on: January 22, 2023 at 10:38 pm

    Henry Wilhelm is the master of these tests.  He visited me about a month ago.  What a fun visit.  he’s running around with his color matter taking readings everywhere we go.

    I think you’ll find the Epson LKegacy line of papers to have great archival abilities.  I really like their Legacy Fiber.  That’s what I am using for my display prints now, without glass.

     

    Mark McCormick-Goodhart (Aardenburg) is also a serious professional in this domain; well worth visiting his site, signing-up to it and perusing its very rich offerings. https://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/

    Mark D Segal Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop". Please check the PhotoPXL Store for availability.

    Mark D Segal
    Mark D Segal
    Silver Member
    Posts: 721
    Re: Capture One’s NEW License Options (Terrible)
    Reply #5 on: January 22, 2023 at 6:19 pm

    C1’s support for local adjustments and masks makes a move decision a little more complicated.  I plan to hold on to my current C1 license and move to LR / PS for new work.  I do find PS mask options more flexible and have always done all of my finish work in PS.

    So Lightroom’s previous masking scheme was indeed not as sophisticated as Capture One, but that is not true of LR from version 11 on. As I have been working my way through converting edits I did using Capture One to LR equivalents, I’ve found that I can pretty much just look at what I did with Capture One masks and duplicate that with Lightroom. In some cases making the masks is much easier because of the AI masking. In particular anything with people or where I am doing a sky adjustment is pretty trivial with Lightroom.

     

    -Will

    Generally speaking yes, however the Sky masking in LR can over-spill the exact area one wants to cover, in which case it’s necessary to “Subtract”, which is also pretty easy – the trick is to learn to use the right brush size and feathering. For dealing with skies I have also found that if there are no other matching colours in the photo that can be affected, it can give more accurate results to use a colour range mask rather than the sky mask.

    Mark D Segal Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop". Please check the PhotoPXL Store for availability.

    Mark D Segal
    Mark D Segal
    Silver Member
    Posts: 721
    Re: Capture One’s NEW License Options (Terrible)
    Reply #6 on: January 22, 2023 at 6:16 pm

    I was a LR user since the pre-public beta. When I ditched my heavy Canon pro DSLRs system for Fuji around 2013, I quickly became very disappointed in the LR conversions of Fuji RAF files. I tried C1 and liked it. I switched to LR shortly thereafter and have been very happy with how it works, the customization, speed and resulting image quality. I cancelled my Creative Cloud subscription since Affinity Photo handles my occasional need for pixel-level editing.

    In late 2017, I switched to Leica (a bucket list item since high school) and continued to use C1P. Version 23 is awesome. I hardly ever have to leave the application and I don’t need the expensive plugins that I found necessary with LR.

    I just now resubscribed to Creative Cloud with the Photography bundle to check out LR. It’s very different than C1P. I have to play around editing RAW files side-by-side with C1P to get a feel for it. It’s too soon to tell if I will switch, but I’m already annoyed with the poor noise handling and necessity of switching between Library and Develop modules while editing images.

    Regards,
    Bud James

    Please check out my fine art and travel photography at http://www.budjames.photography.

    LR has changed so much over the years that yes, you could have a learning curve switching back into it now.

    I haven’t experienced poor noise handling with LR, nor do I need to switch between the Library and Develop modules to edit photographs, so I don’t understand how you are having those issues, while not arguing that you do. Perhaps you could amplify a bit.

    Mark D Segal Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop". Please check the PhotoPXL Store for availability.

    Mark D Segal
    Mark D Segal
    Silver Member
    Posts: 721
    Re: Epson Legacy Baryta II
    Reply #7 on: January 22, 2023 at 3:51 pm

    Wow -WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THE FORUM? The post I replied to immediately above disappeared just after I posted. Here is what I thought I was replying to, from the email PhotoPXL generates:

    <Well, I hope this post doesn’t double up with one I submitted but doesn’t show up.  Weird.

    Anyway this will be shorter:
        The poor packaging bugged me so much that I moved the paper into an empty Legacy Platine box that I had – including re-bagging it into the proper size clear Platine empty bag.  The Platin box has more room and the nice foam corners so that I don’t have to “jam” the paper bag back into it’s box.
        The first test print I made last evening didn’t look all that great next to the same image on Platine.  After looking at it for a while, I decided it looked “over inked”….
        So, I went to make another test print of Bill Atkinson’s test image file with the intention of lowering the ink density (color density in the driver) only to discover that Epson’s EMI registered media type already had the color density set to -20%!  Interesting.  So I lowered it another 10% to -30% and the print looks MUCH better  and aligns nicely with the Platine print’s overall saturation, tonality, smoothness of the grayscale ramp, etc.
    Nice paper.  Different enough in paper white, surface sheen and texture, from Platine to continue to test and “live with” for a while to see if it will be added to my inventory.  It IS much closer to the original barytas (paper substrate notwithstanding) in surface texture and and sheen to hold my interest as a potential replacement for those papers.
    Rand>

    Mark D Segal Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop". Please check the PhotoPXL Store for availability.

    • This reply was modified 4 days, 2 hours ago by Mark D Segal.
    Mark D Segal
    Mark D Segal
    Silver Member
    Posts: 721
    Re: Epson Legacy Baryta II
    Reply #8 on: January 22, 2023 at 3:47 pm

    Hi Rand,

    This reads to me like a profiling/Media Type issue for that paper and your printer model, which perhaps Epson hasn’t brought up to date yet. As you would have noted in my review, there was no problem with the Epson OEM profile and Media Type for the SC-P900 printer, which is a more recent model. My SC-P5000 is a six year old model by now, and as I mentioned in the article, Epson America had not made a specific profile for it by the time I finished my testing. I would imagine more profiles are in the works.

    There must be an interesting back-story to the packaging. I was under the impression that the other Legacy papers were packaged in Europe, but perhaps not. I do recall from back in the day that Epson had had to put a great deal of time and effort into the Legacy packaging we like so much, and I think those over-sized black boxes are not cheap. I’m wondering whether they ran into supply chain or commercial issues that caused them to revise the packaging approach.

    Mark D Segal Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop". Please check the PhotoPXL Store for availability.

    Mark D Segal
    Mark D Segal
    Silver Member
    Posts: 721
    Re: Capture One’s NEW License Options (Terrible)
    Reply #9 on: January 22, 2023 at 2:56 pm

    C1’s support for local adjustments and masks makes a move decision a little more complicated.  I plan to hold on to my current C1 license and move to LR / PS for new work.  I do find PS mask options more flexible and have always done all of my finish work in PS.

    I suppose you have a perpetual license for C1 that will allow you to open all the files that have C1 masking. You only need to hope that going forward this version of C1 will work with future OS upgrades should you need to revert to those photos. I wonder whether the Avalanche app mentioned further back in this thread would look after this issue.

    Going forward, don’t assume that you need to do all the work with layers and masks in PS. LR has made enormous strides in this area and has vastly improved capabilities and results with masking and image repair functions. I would recommend exploiting what LR has to offer first before having to render to TIFF or PSD and editi in PS.

    Mark D Segal Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop". Please check the PhotoPXL Store for availability.

    Mark D Segal
    Mark D Segal
    Silver Member
    Posts: 721
    Re: Capture One’s NEW License Options (Terrible)
    Reply #10 on: January 22, 2023 at 2:45 pm

    It seems from the many posts the majority of C1 users now are looking at other RAW programs that perhaps before this strangely timed announcement came out, they would probably not have started in earnest.

    Not so sure – it can seem that way, but don’t forget on this Forum we are only seeing a small sample of users. How representative this sample is of the whole user base we just can’t know.

    Mark D Segal Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop". Please check the PhotoPXL Store for availability.

    Mark D Segal
    Mark D Segal
    Silver Member
    Posts: 721
    Re: Epson P800: papers with strong longevity?
    Reply #11 on: January 22, 2023 at 1:17 am

    Please check the websites of Wilhelm Research and Aardenburg Imaging.

    Mark D Segal Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop". Please check the PhotoPXL Store for availability.

Viewing 12 posts - 1 through 12 (of 702 total)