Home > Topics > Printing > Epson Printers > New series Epson Printers!
New series Epson Printers!
-
AuthorTopic: New series Epson Printers! Read 62315 Times
-
New series Epson Printers!on: June 6, 2020 at 10:06 am
Reading the above post of Mark, i would say that is an eufemistic wat of saying Epson marketed a New Line of printers that are incompatible with especially fine art gloss papers . And with their history one can only conclude that they knew this.
It is a systemic issue.
Jan, I’m not known for saying things “euphemistically” – I call the shots as clearly as I can to help assure no misunderstandings. But since there will always be people with their own issues and presumptions who feel the need to erroneously leverage these unfounded ideas off of unrelated remarks, for avoidance of doubt let me clarify that I have absolutely no reason to believe that the new line of Epson printers is incompatible with fine art gloss papers. And for added clarity let me confirm that in a preliminary way I have already tested the performance of high quality gloss/luster paper in an Epson SC-P9570 to which I had a short period of access and the results were stunning. We have not yet tested the new SC-P700 and SC-P900 models, but that will be forthcoming soon in work Kevin is undertaking for the P700 shortly and which some time after that I expect to be doing with a P900.
I must also take exception to your last sentence in which you insinuate that Epson has been knowingly marketing machinery that is systemically defective, in this case with regard to printing on gloss papers. Anyone who can make such a statement doesn’t have a clue what kind of research, consultation, revision processes, time, effort and money goes into the design, tooling, manufacture and marketing of new printer models, inks and drivers. It’s enormous. No, they don’t necessarily get it all perfect (whatever that means) every time – that’s unlikely in such a highly innovative and complex undertaking as this, where the technology is at the forefront and the machines are being sold and used all over the world in so many different ways and environments; but something as basic as ink drying properly on gloss paper they have achieved since I started using their professional inkjet printers 20 years ago. And if you think about it rationally, nobody in their right mind managing multi-million dollar investments with reputations to preserve in all manner of markets for these printers would be knowingly marketing machinery with such elementary systemic defects. It would cost them a fortune, they aren’t dumb, and they are in business to enhance reputation, expand markets and turn a profit.
As I said in posts above, the identified problem is most likely an issue confined to defective batches of one or several papers.
Mark D Segal Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop". Please check the PhotoPXL Store for availability.
Re: New series Epson Printers!Reply #1 on: June 8, 2020 at 12:03 pmIt is systemic. And it is acknowledged by Epson. Note: this is about the SC-P75xx/95xx printers. The 700/900 i have no experience with these.
Also the PE based photopapers, like Eposon Premium line of papers indeed do not show the problem of bleeding and pooling(coalescence).
My experience with these printers is now 5 months, of which 4 months with my own SC-P9500 (replacing a SC-P7000 and a SC-P9000) . I have spent in labor, paper, ink, travel the equivalent of two 95xx printers, with the only result now a formal notice to Epson.
Would like to hear what is so stunning about the results you expereienced sofar.
The Epson provided profiles for the Premium papers are faulty, this is reported to Epson.
There is a serious issue with strong gloss variation with gloss papers like Epson Premium Gloss, which easily can result in what in research is called “false positive”.
The experience i have is that the strong gloss variation can give the sensation of seeing more deails in the very dark areas, but actually is seeing the differnece in glossiness. If that is stunning, then i agree but like i said a ‘false positive’ .
Given your vast expereinece with printing, may i do a humble suggestion: create gradients from black to white, say 4 by 4 cm. Both a gradient from left to right and one at an oblique angle.
Print it, i always print at max resolutlion ie 600PPI -> 1200×2400 dpi. And then observe the very strong gloss variations going from very glossy black to white, and also look for ‘false colors’ in the grey part of the gradient, which could be the effects of light breaking by the pigment crystals.
Re: New series Epson Printers!Reply #2 on: June 8, 2020 at 1:18 pmWould like to hear what is so stunning about the results you expereienced sofar.
Jan,
Have you received the Bill Atkinson printer test print I mailed to you? I’d be interested in your reaction and comparison with other printers in your studio.
Rand
Rand Scott Adams Rand47
Re: New series Epson Printers!Reply #3 on: June 8, 2020 at 4:02 pmIt is systemic. And it is acknowledged by Epson. Note: this is about the SC-P75xx/95xx printers. The 700/900 i have no experience with these.
Also the PE based photopapers, like Eposon Premium line of papers indeed do not show the problem of bleeding and pooling(coalescence).
My experience with these printers is now 5 months, of which 4 months with my own SC-P9500 (replacing a SC-P7000 and a SC-P9000) . I have spent in labor, paper, ink, travel the equivalent of two 95xx printers, with the only result now a formal notice to Epson.
Would like to hear what is so stunning about the results you expereienced sofar.
The Epson provided profiles for the Premium papers are faulty, this is reported to Epson.
There is a serious issue with strong gloss variation with gloss papers like Epson Premium Gloss, which easily can result in what in research is called “false positive”.
The experience i have is that the strong gloss variation can give the sensation of seeing more deails in the very dark areas, but actually is seeing the differnece in glossiness. If that is stunning, then i agree but like i said a ‘false positive’ .
Given your vast expereinece with printing, may i do a humble suggestion: create gradients from black to white, say 4 by 4 cm. Both a gradient from left to right and one at an oblique angle.
Print it, i always print at max resolutlion ie 600PPI -> 1200×2400 dpi. And then observe the very strong gloss variations going from very glossy black to white, and also look for ‘false colors’ in the grey part of the gradient, which could be the effects of light breaking by the pigment crystals.
(1) I would have expected you to at least confirm that you were not trying to re-interpret my writing, as I explained to you that your inferences about my comments were wrong.
(2) You are in Europe and I am in North America, so I can’t account for any differences there may be between profiles provided in Europe and those provided in North America, but I can speak for the latter, and of course for my own. And I can only speak for tests I have done on that printer model for three papers: Epson Legacy Baryta, Epson Legacy Platine and Epson Legacy Fiber.
(3) As you are running a professional business based on using these machines, I have to assume that you used the exactly correct profile for the paper type you were printing on.
(4) As there are a number of different kinds of gloss paper and your naming of the paper is not exact, I can’t understand what paper exactly is showing the problems you mention, nor can I ascertain that the profile you were using is exactly matched to that paper, but again, as you are an industry professional I assume you know all that and use the materials properly.
(5) In the short time I had access to that printer model, I did of course run tests with both Epson profiles (North America) and my custom profiles, and I printed my comprehensive suite of evaluation targets for assessing the results, including patch sets, the Atkinson Printer Test Page and the BVDM Romans 16 low key and high key B&W test images.
(6) Your complaint about gloss differential is non-existent in the test materials I generated (but see my comment on gloss differential below).
(7) Your complaint about hue inconstancy in the grayscale is not apparent in the test materials I generated.
(8) Your complaint about the quality of the Epson profiles is not apparent in the test materials I generated.
Comment on gloss differential: if the print were viewed at such an awkward angle that you cannot see the photo from the surface, it is possible to see extreme gloss differential from the surface of ANY gloss or luster paper from any printer unless a coat of gloss equalizer were applied, because there is so little ink sprayed on the highlights. But since nobody looks at prints this way (we all want to see the photos, after all – not the paper surface reflection), it is normally a non-issue these days.
This is all I can tell you about my experience with this printer series. Whether it changes your mind about your characterization of your problems as between “systemic” or “unique” is not something I can control – that’s up to you to decide for yourself; hence these comments will end my participation in this thread. I wish you the best in getting your particular problems sorted with Epson.
Mark D Segal Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop". Please check the PhotoPXL Store for availability.
Re: New series Epson Printers!Reply #4 on: June 9, 2020 at 3:26 amWould like to hear what is so stunning about the results you expereienced sofar.
Jan,
Have you received the Bill Atkinson printer test print I mailed to you? I’d be interested in your reaction and comparison with other printers in your studio.
Rand
Hi Rand,
No, unfortunately not, i am looking forward.
Re: New series Epson Printers!Reply #5 on: June 9, 2020 at 4:20 am(1) I would have expected you to at least confirm that you were not trying to re-interpret my writing, as I explained to you that your inferences about my comments were wrong.
(2) You are in Europe and I am in North America, so I can’t account for any differences there may be between profiles provided in Europe and those provided in North America, but I can speak for the latter, and of course for my own. And I can only speak for tests I have done on that printer model for three papers: Epson Legacy Baryta, Epson Legacy Platine and Epson Legacy Fiber.
(3) As you are running a professional business based on using these machines, I have to assume that you used the exactly correct profile for the paper type you were printing on.
(4) As there are a number of different kinds of gloss paper and your naming of the paper is not exact, I can’t understand what paper exactly is showing the problems you mention, nor can I ascertain that the profile you were using is exactly matched to that paper, but again, as you are an industry professional I assume you know all that and use the materials properly.
(5) In the short time I had access to that printer model, I did of course run tests with both Epson profiles (North America) and my custom profiles, and I printed my comprehensive suite of evaluation targets for assessing the results, including patch sets, the Atkinson Printer Test Page and the BVDM Romans 16 low key and high key B&W test images.
(6) Your complaint about gloss differential is non-existent in the test materials I generated (but see my comment on gloss differential below).
(7) Your complaint about hue inconstancy in the grayscale is not apparent in the test materials I generated.
(8) Your complaint about the quality of the Epson profiles is not apparent in the test materials I generated.
Comment on gloss differential: if the print were viewed at such an awkward angle that you cannot see the photo from the surface, it is possible to see extreme gloss differential from the surface of ANY gloss or luster paper from any printer unless a coat of gloss equalizer were applied, because there is so little ink sprayed on the highlights. But since nobody looks at prints this way (we all want to see the photos, after all – not the paper surface reflection), it is normally a non-issue these days.
This is all I can tell you about my experience with this printer series. Whether it changes your mind about your characterization of your problems as between “systemic” or “unique” is not something I can control – that’s up to you to decide for yourself; hence these comments will end my participation in this thread. I wish you the best in getting your particular problems sorted with Epson.
(1) Mark, no clue as to what you are saying with your remark.
(2) When i got into contact with Rand already more than 2 months ago, and also in contact with others in the USA, i downloaded the driver package from the Epson USA site on a ‘sandbox’ W10 computer. So to eliminate a possible difference. As you probably know the driver is packaged differently on the Epson USA site. So i have experience with both the USA and the EU drivers and profiles. Did not notice a difference. Also when using Epson Media Installer, it will also download ICC profiles, and as far as i can trace back all came from an USA site, and apprarently made in the USA.
(3) Yes. And i share any findings i have when calibrating a Paper-Printer-Mode and subsequent ICC profiling of that PPM with manufacturers if there is an issue. Must say that with brands like Innova and Hahnemuhle that is very incidental. And i also do spot measurements during production.
(4) To give you a feeling of my procedure to add a paper in my suite i offer to my clients:
a/ Calibrate the Paper Printer-Mode (the mode is always the same: 720/2880 or 600/2400), non-cm , to find the best printer-settings (base medium, paper thickness, feed , platen gap, suction, head-alignment)
b/ Profile with given settings, using 2371 patches of patch size meeting the standard, measure with i1Pro2 or i1Pro3Std, or with higher no of patches on an IsisXL when at my main supplier.
c/ Validate the resulting profile, both visually with several tools, and with testprints, again both visually and by measuring. If needed loop again.
d/ Take into production, note: my expirimenting and calibrating/profiling is in a separate computer environment.
e/ During production do spot measurements and correlate with above mentioned mearurements.
f/ If something has changed, or measurments indicate, repeat procedure.
Please share your procedure in more detail, like i did, always interested to learn
(5) see my remark on (4)
(6) I did direct comparisons with the SC-P9000, and the difference is not trivial. Specifically in the transition from pure black to very dark grey. Easily visible under normal viewing angles. Using Black Enhancement Overcoat changes it , but again, specifically in the range from pure-black to very dark grey, any increase in vibility of details is because of gloss diference. In reply to your remark at the bottom of your post, it is not about the gloss diff between paper gloss and ink gloss, it is about the difference in gloss in the inked parts, and in very particular between pure black and very dark grey.
(7) It is in my tests.
(8) It is in my tests.
Your final remark, gives me the feeling as if you are an absolute, and not open to ‘changes’ like you suggest it is up to me to change. Fine with me.
Re: New series Epson Printers!Reply #6 on: June 9, 2020 at 5:00 amIn addition to my post above, the following papers i have tested, at least calibration prints made and evaluated:
Museo Silver Rag 300gsm
Moab Juniper 300gsm
Sihl Masterclass Baryta Satin 295gsm
Sihl Masterclass Photo Lustra 300gsm
Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta 325gsm
Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl 285gsm
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta 315gsm
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl 320gsm
Hahnemuhle PhotoRagSatin 310gsm
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Metallic 340gsm
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308gsm
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Bright White 310gsm
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth 305gsm
Hahnemuhle Agave 290gsm
Hahnemuhle Hemp 290gsm
Innova IFA11 315gsm
Innova IFA12 315gsm
Innova IFA14 315gsm
Innova IFA22 310gsm
Innova IFA24 310gsm
Innova IFA45 335gsm
Innova IFA 69v1 aka Epson Legacy Baryta (both sourced from Felix-Schoeller)
Innova IFA 69v2 (introduced recently as the v1 production was stopped sometime last year)
Innova IFA107 310gsm
Innova IFA108 310gsm
Epson Premium Glossy Paper 250gsm
Epson Premium Semi-Gloss Paper 250gsm
Epson Premium Luster Paper 260
Epson Fine Art Cotton Smooth Bright 300gsm
Proline Vibrant Gloss 255gsm (and several other PE based Photo papers)
Quite a bit more papers to calibrate and profile, but stopped given the blocking issues i ran into:
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin-bottom: .0001pt;”>Hahnemuhle Museum Etching 350gsm</p>
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin-bottom: .0001pt;”>Hahnemuhle German Etching 310gsm</p>
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin-bottom: .0001pt;”>Hahnemuhle William Turner 310gsm</p>
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin-bottom: .0001pt;”>Hahnemuhle Albrecht Duerer 210gsm</p>
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin-bottom: .0001pt;”>Hahnemuhle Torchon 285gsm</p>
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin-bottom: .0001pt;”>Hahenmuhle Bamboo 290gsm</p>
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin-bottom: .0001pt;”>Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta Satin 300gsm</p>
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin-bottom: .0001pt;”>Innova IFA39</p>
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin-bottom: .0001pt;”>Innova IFA49</p>
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin-bottom: .0001pt;”>Ilford Galerie Gold Fibre Gloss (aka Legacy Platine, or Canson Platine, sourced from Felix-Schoeller)</p>
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin-bottom: .0001pt;”>Ilford Washi</p>
<p class=”MsoNormal” style=”margin-bottom: .0001pt;”>Awagami Washi</p>
Re: New series Epson Printers!Reply #7 on: June 9, 2020 at 8:55 am(1) I would have expected you to at least confirm that you were not trying to re-interpret my writing, as I explained to you that your inferences about my comments were wrong.
(1) Mark, no clue as to what you are saying with your remark.Your final remark, gives me the feeling as if you are an absolute, and not open to ‘changes’ like you suggest it is up to me to change. Fine with me.
This really will be my last response on this matter, but I need to be sure there is clarity in my position here.
Re (1): If you don’t have a clue you need to re-read what you wrote and think about it some more.
Re my final remark – I am always open to change my mind about anything provided I see good reason to do so and so far I have not. I have no issue with all the testing you’ve done and all your observations about what you are seeing – I have no reason to doubt that, or to doubt your professional capability; I just don’t see that the issues you observed are necessary “systemic”. And there is no record of evidence I know of to confirm that notion. I decided to end my participation in this thread simply because there is nothing more I can say about your situation beyond my experience and knowledge.
As I suggested, I hope between you and Epson whatever you are experiencing gets sorted out and you can move onward and upward.
Mark D Segal Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop". Please check the PhotoPXL Store for availability.
Re: New series Epson Printers!Reply #8 on: June 9, 2020 at 10:05 amWould like to hear what is so stunning about the results you expereienced sofar.
Jan,
Have you received the Bill Atkinson printer test print I mailed to you? I’d be interested in your reaction and comparison with other printers in your studio.
Rand
Hi Rand,
No, unfortunately not, i am looking forward.
Jan,
I mailed it about two weeks ago in a tube. I’m surprised you’ve not received it.
Rand
Rand Scott Adams Rand47
-
AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.