New series Epson Printers!
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New series Epson Printers!on: April 25, 2020 at 11:36 am
QUICK UPDATE
I’m in possession of and have installed driver version 6.73 for my SC P7570. It has fixed the Print Preview display error, and seems to have also corrected the problem where use of the Epson Media Installer software would wipe clean any saved settings or user defined paper sizes in the driver.
This is great progress. 6.73 should show up soon for general download on Epson’s Support page and in the Epson Software Updater utility.
There’s another “issue” that has surfaced in my testing that is relevant in a very specific situation only. And so far it looks as though it is a design limitation of the new print head as opposed to a bug somewhere in the software / firmware. Here goes.
Use case:
- Printing cut sheet paper
- Printing using Enhanced Black Overcoat feature (EBO)
In these conditions, the “too much leading edge offset” happens that will displace your image toward the trailing edge, and cut off a portion of the trailing edge of the image when printed. There is no mention of this in the User Guide except on page 102 where it talks about a check box labeled “Minimize Top Margin.” (MTM). What is very disconcerting about this is that the print layout feature of Epson’s Print Layout software, Lightroom’s Print Module and Photoshop’s Print layout visual DO NOT GIVE ANY VISUAL INDICATION that this will happen. So, if you lay an image out in these applications, and select EBO option, you won’t see the problem until the printer starts printing with a way too large leading edge margin, that then tells you that something is not going right with this print! You can spell that: frustration, confusion, wasted paper, wasted ink. Of course once you’ve finally figured this out, you can just NOT DO THAT with cut sheets. OK, now is when it gets really interesting. Turns out that if you do check EBO in this “cut sheet feed” use case, AND ALSO check the MTM box, the printer will, in fact move the printing starting point “back closer to the leading edge of the paper.” When you check the MTM box, you get an alert message that says, “you may get smearing and/or lower image quality” using MTM. Not encouraging. But, when I used MTM in conjunction with EBO, I did not get lower image quality or smearing with cut sheets. My surmise is that this warning is more for roll paper where the initial load-curl could cause this problem. So, is this a compete fix for the “displaced image that doesn’t show up on the print layout and Print Preview in your application?” I thought so. But I was wrong. While it does shift the starting place of the print head “back toward the leading edge of the paper,” there is no indication of “how much.” And, if your image size as laid out in your application is still wider/taller than whatever the unknown limit is for “how much toward the leading edge” MTM moves the starting point, your image will still be cut off on the trailing edge to some unknown degree. “Isn’t that nice?” NOT. When I first used EBO in combination with MTM, I though “Ah, that’s the cure.” (Mind you, none of this is documented in the User Guide except for the vague description of MTM in the EBO description on page 102.). But it is NOT the cure. On closer inspection, I realized that a very small amount of the trailing edge of the image was still cut off. So, what to do? Well, unless Epson chooses to do something such as state what the “leading edge margin limitation is” in these conditions, AND has this displayed in the print layout views in the various applications (which I very much doubt they will do since this is a ‘single use case issue’) the only thing left to do, and which I’m in the process of doing is creating an image in photo shop that is an empty box with a stroke border in 3:2 aspect ratio (and others 4;3, etc.) and test printing them on cheap paper to find out what my minimum left and right margins “must be” on any given size cut sheet paper to avoid the problem. That will lay this issue to rest for me and provide reliable parameters when printing on cut sheets using EBO and MTM. Clear as mud, right? LOL I’d recommend to Epson three things – in case Epson is following this. First, on Page 102 in the User Guide (and other places where EBO is mentioned) I would change the terminology for “Minimize Top Margin” to “Minimize LEADING EDGE Margin.” “Top” is meaningless and in fact confusing. “Top” in relationship to what? Second, Epson should do their own calculations for the various standard cut sheet sizes and “publish” in the User Guide in this area what the minimum “leading edge margin” must be to avoid the potential for image displacement and trialing edge image cutoff. A “best case” Epson action would be to change how the layout view operates when the EBO and MTM boxes are selected to visibly show these limitations. This would be much like Lightroom’s “show edge bleed” function, and how margins cannot be set smaller than the minimum required by the printer. I suspect that the latter suggestion would be a major PITA to implement, but the former two should be a piece of cake and avoid significant confusion for anyone trying to figure this whole issue out on their own with the current documentation.
OK, if you’re read this far and your eyes have not rolled back into your head, and if you’re interested, I could post my “minimum leading / trailing margin requirements to avoid this situation” when I’m finished testing this unique use case issue. Let me know. I may be preaching to a choir of one, that would be, “Me.”
Oh, and for the record, this issue has been replicated by Epson in their lab based on my discovery of the situation. And to their credit, they are responsible for letting me know two very important things. First, this is not seen as a “bug” by Epson, but rather a “limitation” of the new head design when using EBO with cut sheets. (Frankly I’m not sure what potential impacts there may be for roll paper use, I’ve not explored that yet.) Second, I’m sensing that we’ll not see a change in either documentation in the User Guide, nor changes to print layout functionality to make this limitation “visible” i.e., that something has shifted the image toward the tailing edge of the paper. I hope I’m wrong. Don’t think I am.
Now, having described this issue, I don’t want anyone to think that I’m “dissing” this printer, Epson, or Epson’s Tech Support personnel. To the contrary, I’m even more impressed with the printer overall. It delivers wonderful output with great new features combined with very nice user ergonomics in terms of loading paper, operating the printer etc. And, the Epson Tech Support team has been flat out amazing in working with me and deserving of much praise! GREAT listeners, serious about getting issues resolved (as in the new driver release that did fix real bugs), and being appreciative of my help in this lock-down situation where I’ve provided feedback, screen shots, descriptions of behavior, and even screen capture videos and photos of resulting prints. I’m actually very much enjoying working with them on these things. And I’m loving the printer more and more as the real problems are ID’d and fixed, and as I get my head wrapped around new things like the Epson Media Installer (EMI) functionality and this “cut sheet EBO MTM issue.”
Rand
EPILOGUE
It is apparent to me, also, that perhaps a majority of folk who buy these printers will be printing principally on roll paper, perhaps especially 9570 owners. And even when they do print on cut sheets, if they don’t need/want to use the EBO function, they may never even encounter this very limited use case issue. I get that. BUT, I’m guessing there may be a lot of people, especially those choosing the 7570 who have a clientele (or personal needs) that will see use of the printer “as much for cut sheets” (and perhaps more) as use of roll paper. And certainly the EBO feature is really worthwhile for some image types! I’m very impressed with it. While my post here may appear like “nit picking fly specks out of the pepper,” or whatever, I thought it was worth presenting in some detail.
Rand Scott Adams Rand47
Re: New series Epson Printers!Reply #3 on: April 26, 2020 at 9:38 amOne hopes for a certain amount of continuity in the specs from one driver to the next and from one application version to the next, unless the developers alert us to changes, which should be done in their manuals or spec sheets. It took me searching through FOUR Epson printer manuals to verify (avoid memory lapse) Epson’s default margin settings for cut sheets: 3mm top, left and right, 14mm bottom. Let’s set aside borderless printing. My experience printing from LR (through MacOS) from a number of recent Epson professional printer models (definitely 4900, 800, 5000), has been, if in Page Set-Up I select my standard paper size with Sheet>Borders>Maximum and then in the Lr Print GUI set my margins to be the same on all sides, and larger than 14mm, the print will be centered even if the image itself is smaller than the resulting cell size (see illustration) in the print window and it comes out that way on paper. This means that either the driver or the application or some combination thereof are making the under-the-hood adjustments which result in the print being centered regardless of Epson’s minimum margin requirements differing between the bottom and the other three sides. I’m just posting this as an “aide-memoire” about where we are coming from in order to understand where we should be heading to. I know with the new models there is a major change in the relationship between the on-screen driver menus and the printer LCD for managing these printers, but one would have hoped that the same basic behaviour would be maintained, and if it has been intentionally changed, such would be notified in the documentation. Now, you have had first-hand experience we haven’t yet, because you bought the printer, while we are waiting for review units to test them. When we get into testing all these new models, we will be looking to see how print centering differs from the past and what needs to be done about it. So your heads-up here will be very useful.
Mark D Segal Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop". Please check the PhotoPXL Store for availability.
Re: New series Epson Printers!Reply #4 on: April 26, 2020 at 11:00 amMark,
Thanks for this. Your experience above describes my experience exactly in using Epson printers with LR’s Print Module. And, with the new 75xx and 95xx series printers it works “the same” (thankfully) but with slightly different parameters.
Here are illustrations from LR w/ the SC P7570.
Conditions:
- Paper size in this view is 17×22″
- The actual image’s aspect ratio is 3:2 (done intentionally for this illustration)
- I have the “Page Bleed” indicator turned on to “gray out” the unprintable portion of the paper (i.e. a visual indicator or the minimum margins required for the printer)
First, in this illustration I have the “margin sliders” each set to its absolute minimum:
Here you can see the minimum margin requirements of: .11 left, .56 right, .11 top, and .13 bottom (in gray, and with their concomitant indicator lines). You can also see that I set the image width to an arbitrary size. (ignoring the height slider since the aspect ratio is locked), and can see the “image size lines” as a set of lines “inside” the lines indicating minimum margins required.
In this next screen shot you see the identical parameters as above, but with the “Image Cells” indicator turned on, and a desired final image size to 20,” and I’ve set my left margin to “match” the right, at .56″ so that my image is “centered up” on the paper.
This illustrates an aspect that you reference above, i.e. that with a fixed aspect ratio image size, the long edge “cell size” dimension “controls” the actual image size on the paper. For me, having the cell size indicator on, knowing how this works, is just distracting. Ergo…..
Here is how I typically work knowing that “on this printer, having a .56″ minimum right margin for cut sheets” I will make “my default setting” for the left margin match that.
This illustration shows that I set the left and right margins to .56, and the top and bottom both to .25″. This keeps my image “centered” no matter what I do with the cell size input.
Conclusions:
- The new printers do, in fact, display in LR Print Module exactly what you’re used to seeing with other Epson printers. Only the minimum margins required are a little different, i.e., principally the trailing edge margin (right) of .56″. I surmise this is true because the printer has to “hold on to” the print at the trailing edge in its “straight through” sheet feed path!
- This is good news … 🙂
Confusion:
- What I describe in my EBO issue is an EXCEPTION to the LR UI being able to give a solid, reliable “visual indication” of how the print will in fact layout and be printed.
- In that case you could have an image laid out in the LR UI and have the resulting print “wrong” coming out of the printer.
- My testing to be done later this morning seeks to establish what the “real left margin minimum must be” when using EBO + MTM “so that” you’ll still have an accurate depiction in the LR UI of how the print will come out.
- This is a “single use case” issue and not a general use case issue. The LR Print Module UI works “perfectly fine” in all other general printing scenarios.
As I mentioned, finding / figuring out what the heck was going on with BEO and BEO + MTM was the hard part! Now that it’s figured out, and once we know what the minimum left margin requirement is, it fades into irrelevance in terms of our normal workflow through the LR Print Module UI. I intend to make some LR Print Templates that are labeled “BEO + MTM” in their names to use in that use case.
Hope this helps. Now I’ll run tests to find what that minimum left margin must be, and report.
Rand
Rand Scott Adams Rand47
Re: New series Epson Printers!Reply #6 on: April 26, 2020 at 12:43 pmWELL, WELL, WELL….. VERY GOOD NEWS, AND A HUGE “NEVERMIND!” (In the immortal words of Gilda Radner)
I just ran tests re the EBO + MTM use case. And I’m first of all ashamed, and apologize, that I didn’t first duplicate the “EBO + MTM displacement problem” test, using the new driver release “first” before my post describing the need for testing for the minimum “real” leading edge margin requirement. Dang…
BUT the good news is that the new driver solves the issue. With EBO + MTM on cut sheets, you can have the left (leading) margin set to its absolute minimum (.11″) and the printer will start printing “right there” w/ no “mystery displacement” at all.
So, my final conclusion on using Enhanced Black Overcoat with cut sheets on SC P75xx/95xx printers is:
- If you use cut sheets and check the Enhanced Black Overcoat option “only” in the driver, it will displace your image to the right (toward the trailing edge and you will not “see this” in the print layout UI. The resulting print will be displaced toward the trailing edge, and the trailing edge of the image will be cut off to some degree.
- The solution to this is, to also check the “Minimize Top Margin” check box that is right underneath the Enhance Black Overcoat check box.
- You will get a warning message of possible smearing or loss of image quality on this portion of the image
- But, my experience with flat, cut sheets is that I see no smearing or image degradation at all
- When you do combine EBO and MTM, you can print right up to the absolute minimum for the printer’s left (leading edge) margin with no difficulty or displacement errors at all.
Here are my test images to illustrate the above:
First, here is the “image” I created as a 3:2 aspect ratio to create a left/right edges of the image indication. (The idea was to speed test printing, and minimize ink use.)
And here is that image in the LR Print Module with the left margin set to the printer’s minimum of .11″.
And here’s what the resulting print looks like if you ONLY check Enhance Black Overcoat option in the driver:
You can see that despite the UI showing the image fully to the left margin limit, the printer has displaced the image toward the trialing edge of the paper, and has (in this case) completely cut off my right image-edge boundary indicator. Not good, and a nasty surprise if you’re not aware that you MUST when using cut sheets “also” check the Minimize Top Margin check box.
Here is the resulting print when you DO know to also check the Minimize Top Margin check box:
And here’s a “real image” demonstration of the same things:
Image laid out in LR UI “up against” the min left margin of .56″:
Resulting print if you ONLY check the Enhance Black Overcoat box and print:
Again, you can see that despite the UI showing the image to the left limit, the printing start point is displaced to the right (trailing edge) and the right side of the image is cut off. If you didn’t know about this situation, you’d be wondering, “What the heck!”
And this is how the print will look if you “do know” that you MUST also check the Minimize Top Margin box, in addition to the Enhance Black Overcoat box with cut sheets:
It comes out of the printer just as the LR UI indicated it should. No displacement, no trailing edge cut off.
OK, so you ask, What’s the big deal in the final analysis? Well the big deal is that there’s NOTHING in the User Guide to tell you about this. The nomenclature of “Minimize Top Margin” (since what it really means is minimize “leading edge” margin”) is both misleading, AND says nothing about the displacement that occurs if you “don’t do this” when printing with cut sheets! So, that’s what the big deal is.
As a practical matter, now that we know this, and now that the new driver fixes the “mystery left minimum” issue that I whinged on about unnecessarily, the only thing to learn from this is:
WITH EPSON’S NEW 75XX/95XX PRINTERS, PRINTING ON CUT SHEETS AND DESIRING TO USE THE ENHANCE BLACK OVERCOAT FUNCTION, YOU MUST ALSO CHECK THE MINIMIZE TOP MARGIN CHECK BOX IN ORDER TO NOT HAVE AN ISSUE WITH IMAGE PLACEMENT INACCURACY IN THE LAYOUT UI, AND RESULTANT DISPLACED IMAGE AND IMAGE CUT OFF ON THE TRAILING EDGE.
JUST THAT SIMPLE.
Denouement:
- I apologize for the unnecessary confusion I added by not testing the mystery- displacement issue w/ the new driver first in yesterday’s post(s)
- I’m still glad I worked through this issue and am able to provide clarity on the very real problem of image displacement using BEO on cut sheets that is not apparent in the layout UI, nor is is mentioned in the User Guide that you MUST also check MTM to avoid it.
- The “fix” is simple, indeed.
- So far, the warning about smearing and IQ degradation that appears when the MTM box is checked, can be ignored when printing on cut sheets that are reasonably flat.
And with this, I’m now going to crawl back under my rock for a while. 🙂
Rand
Rand Scott Adams Rand47
Re: New series Epson Printers!Reply #10 on: April 26, 2020 at 1:06 pmVery useful Rand. I am sure all users of this printer model will thank you for it. Provided Epson agrees with your findings, perhaps they should issue some notes in the documentation?
Mark,
Thank you. I know nothing about how Epson’s internal “documentation modification” scheme works. I suspect it is glacially slow just due to the size of Epson and worldwide / language issues. Nor do I have the contacts and and clout that you, Kevin, and Jeff Schewe have with Epson. So, when you guys do get your test printer, check out my findings and if you do agree with my analysis, perhaps let Epson know. Might help.
But I am going to have my Epson Tech Rep look at my post, with an eye toward his team replicating/vetting my observations. AND, I’m going to suggest that they do, in fact, change the MTM terminology to “Minimize Leading Edge Margin” and also add some warning language about the necessity of using MTM when printing on cut sheets with EBO to avoid nasty displacement surprises!
At the very least, they could provide their phone tech support staff with this information for when they get those, “What the heck?” phone calls.
Rand
Rand Scott Adams Rand47
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