Baryta paper discontinuation?

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  • Rand Scott Adams
    Rand Scott Adams
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    Papers & Media
    on: January 3, 2020 at 11:47 am

    It looks like Ilford is discontinuing Gold Fibre Silk, as is Canson discontinuing Baryta Photographique.  Red River has their San Gabriel Baryta II on “extended back order.”  Canson has announced a Version II coming soon.  Something is up w/ the barytas.  Anyone have any inside scoop on the issue?

    Inquiring minds want to know.

    Rand

    Rand Scott Adams
    Rand47

    Mark D Segal
    Mark D Segal
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    Posts: 92
    Re: Baryta paper discontinuation?
    Reply #1 on: January 3, 2020 at 1:05 pm

    I have received confirmation that indeed Ilford GFS is discontinued. If your information is also correct about the other similar papers you mention, it would indicate some issue (commercial, or chemical supply) with the mill that makes either the substrate or the coating for that group of papers. A real disappointment – this was excellent material. But there are options.

    Mark D Segal
    Author: Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop, published by LaserSoft Imaging AG
    https://www.silverfast.com/downloads/92ed080ac1ae274ea6aeed756a504f7a/en.html

    Mark D Segal
    Mark D Segal
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    Re: Baryta paper discontinuation?
    Reply #2 on: January 3, 2020 at 4:23 pm

    Further to the foregoing, I’ve learned a bit more. A number of these baryta-based coatings came from the same European mill regardless that the brand names of the papers of course differed. There are many more brands than there are coating mills. That mill experienced a production problem that happened many months ago. I’ve heard two different accounts of what the problem was, but regardless, production stopped back then. Different brands had different stock positions back then and they kept supplying from inventory as long as they could. As their inventories dried up, of course they could no longer supply. A successor generation of papers will come forward some time this year (scheduling unclear) intended to work around whatever the foregoing issue was. When it does, we will have to test them, most likely reprofile them etc.

    Mark D Segal
    Author: Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop, published by LaserSoft Imaging AG
    https://www.silverfast.com/downloads/92ed080ac1ae274ea6aeed756a504f7a/en.html

    Charles Charles
    Charles Charles
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    Re: Baryta paper discontinuation?
    Reply #3 on: January 4, 2020 at 3:46 pm

    From the ITSupplies.com website on Jan. 4, 2020:

    Moab Juniper Baryta Rag 305gsm – *All of the Juniper line is backordered with an ETA for January*

     

     

    Alan Goldhammer
    Alan Goldhammer
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    Re: Baryta paper discontinuation?
    Reply #4 on: January 6, 2020 at 6:00 pm

    I ordered some Moab Juniper Rag at the end of September just when the shortages began to be noticed.  The supply chain for photo inkjet papers is certainly not robust with a limited number of paper mills and coating manufacturers.

    Mark D Segal
    Mark D Segal
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    Posts: 92
    Re: Baryta paper discontinuation?
    Reply #5 on: January 6, 2020 at 6:37 pm

    The supply chain for photo inkjet papers is certainly not robust with a limited number of paper mills and coating manufacturers.

    I wouldn’t generalize the problem. So far it is one specific type of paper from one major coating facility that happens to supply a certain number of brands. I’ve heard two explanations for the hiatus; if the one about the international shortage of a key chemical going back to last March is the correct one, and nine months have elapsed with no solution, that would be the determinative weakness in the supply chain. The coating facility supplying this particular paper type are no slouches, so the fact that the issue is not yet resolved suggests it is a difficult one, and here I am hypothesizing – perhaps they are working on a coating that will be similar but not identical to the ones we were accustomed to. As you know, this is a secretive industry so we can only wait and see. Meanwhile Epson Legacy Baryta and Platine still seem to be available in North America, suggesting that either Epson had very large stocks of these media, or they are coated with a slightly different formula elsewhere.

    Mark D Segal
    Author: Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop, published by LaserSoft Imaging AG
    https://www.silverfast.com/downloads/92ed080ac1ae274ea6aeed756a504f7a/en.html

    Alan Goldhammer
    Alan Goldhammer
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    Posts: 13
    Re: Baryta paper discontinuation?
    Reply #6 on: January 7, 2020 at 10:45 am

    Hi Mark,

    Thanks for the comment.  Of course a lot of this stuff is trade secret; that is not what bothers me.  The problem is there are multiple paper vendors who all seem to be affected at the same time and it’s one specific line of paper.  I just looked to see about the availability of Hahnemuhle Baryta Satin (has significant OBA content, more than IGFS) and at least my supplier has this in stock as they do Canson Infinity Baryta (minimal if any OBAs).  My understanding is that Hahnemuhle make their own paper stock but I don’t know if the do the coating.  I think Canson do as well.  It may be the problem is with vendors who do 100% outsourcing.

    Mark D Segal
    Mark D Segal
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    Posts: 92
    Re: Baryta paper discontinuation?
    Reply #7 on: January 7, 2020 at 10:50 am

    The problem appears to be with any vendor’s paper having that one type of coating recipe coated at one mill in Europe.

    I also believe there should be limits to “trade secrets” when it comes to depriving people who depend on this stuff of essential information about when and how it will be replaced and with what.

    Mark D Segal
    Author: Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop, published by LaserSoft Imaging AG
    https://www.silverfast.com/downloads/92ed080ac1ae274ea6aeed756a504f7a/en.html

    Alan Goldhammer
    Alan Goldhammer
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    Re: Baryta paper discontinuation?
    Reply #8 on: January 7, 2020 at 11:26 am

    The problem appears to be with any vendor’s paper having that one type of coating recipe coated at one mill in Europe.

    I also believe there should be limits to “trade secrets” when it comes to depriving people who depend on this stuff of essential information about when and how it will be replaced and with what.

    I confirmed that Moab Juniper Rag, one of the affected papers, is sourced from Europe so it is likely from that mill.  I’m interested in whether the Baryta is coated onto the paper as a separate step from the ink receptor coating.

    The trade secret issue is a big one as uses need to know if there is a difference in the paper so they know whether to re-profile.  Some years ago, Museo changed their paper stock and there were questions about whether the new stock was markedly different.  There was a thread on this over at LuLa and I volunteered to test the “new” version of Silver Rag.  I just needed a few sheets of letter size paper and they sent me a 17 inch roll at no charge!  I did an extensive color and B/W patch set on my old Epson 3880 and saw no difference in terms of dE between the two papers.  Of course we should not be forced into this kind of testing as it should be the manufacturer’s responsibility particularly since they supply ICC profiles.

    Rand Scott Adams
    Rand Scott Adams
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    Posts: 91
    Re: Baryta paper discontinuation?
    Reply #9 on: January 7, 2020 at 11:28 am

    Mark,

    Thank you for the general insight.  There’s a good lesson here for me.  Make sure that if a client intends to do an edition run of prints, that I have enough stock on hand, and set aside, for the entire expected run!  I generally keep decent stock on of my favorite papers, but (shame on me) assumed that a paper I considered a “staple” and class-leading category would always be around / available.  GFS and its cousins were really wonderful papers.  I’d gotten to know them well enough that soft proofing to them was a breeze.

    I wonder if we’ll ever know exactly what the problem was, and why it wasn’t solvable?  Just curiosity, really.  And, whether those that are not completley discontinued, but are on back order and expected to ship sometime soon, will in fact “be exactly the same paper?”

    Rand

    Rand Scott Adams
    Rand47

    Mark D Segal
    Mark D Segal
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    Posts: 92
    Re: Baryta paper discontinuation?
    Reply #10 on: January 7, 2020 at 1:42 pm

    Mark,

    Thank you for the general insight. ……. And, whether those that are not completley discontinued, but are on back order and expected to ship sometime soon, will in fact “be exactly the same paper?”

    Rand

    You are welcome.

    We don’t know what will be shipped or when. I am trying to learn more about all that and will share what I can if I come by anything of value.

    As a matter of prudence, whatever comes next I would re-profile regardless of what anyone says about how similar they are to what went before.

    Mark D Segal
    Author: Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8, SilverFast HDR, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and Adobe Photoshop, published by LaserSoft Imaging AG
    https://www.silverfast.com/downloads/92ed080ac1ae274ea6aeed756a504f7a/en.html

    Alan Goldhammer
    Alan Goldhammer
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    Posts: 13
    Re: Baryta paper discontinuation?
    Reply #11 on: January 7, 2020 at 2:27 pm

    As a matter of prudence, whatever comes next I would re-profile regardless of what anyone says about how similar they are to what went before.

    I have to do that anyway as Canon have a new setting for Baryta paper.  My old profile for Moab Juniper Rag was done prior to the firmware update.  Also, Mark at Aardenburg is going to put this paper through light fast testing which is another reason I’m anxious to get the paper.

    Mark McCormick-Goodhart
    Mark McCormick-Goodhart
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    Posts: 1
    Re: Baryta paper discontinuation?
    Reply #12 on: January 9, 2020 at 4:58 pm

    The “new” so-called Baryta papers are going to be a primary subject of the next round of testing at Aardenburg Imaging & Archives. The original IGFS and the first version of Canson Baryta Photographique were, ironically, the two media that first alerted me to the problem of light induced low-intensity staining (LILIS).  I will spare the details, but as I began to discover and track the LILIS problem, I took various media to the Williamstown Art Conservation Center in order to evaluate material composition with a portable X-ray fluorescence spectrometer (XRF). Turns out that both media did have barium sulfate as advertised, but they also contained OBAs and TiO2, and that set them up for the LILIS degradation problem, much the same way all RC photo media on the market today exhibit this light induced media yellowing problem.

    With regard to marketing literature, Canson claimed Baryta Photographique was a “true baryta”, but the new claim for Baryta Photograqhique II is “100% baryta”, so it will be interesting to evaluate the new versus old. I will be getting the version 2 as soon as it becomes available. I still have a fairly recent box of the version 1 here in my lab, so I will be able to set up a direct comparison type of test. The million dollar question will be “does version II leave out TiO2, and/or are OBAs placed in a subbing layer separate from TiO2 if TiO2 is present? Hopefully, version 2 will turn in better media whitepoint stability than version 1, but only testing and evaluation can determine that outcome.

    This is my first post on Photopxl. Wishing Kevin, et. al, the very best success,

    cheers.

    Mark

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    Rand Scott Adams
    Rand Scott Adams
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    Posts: 91
    Re: Baryta paper discontinuation?
    Reply #13 on: January 9, 2020 at 8:26 pm

    Mark McCormick-Goodhart,

    Thanks for this information.  Looking forward to your testing.

    Rand

    Rand Scott Adams
    Rand47

    Alan Goldhammer
    Alan Goldhammer
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    Posts: 13
    Re: Baryta paper discontinuation?
    Reply #14 on: January 10, 2020 at 10:37 am

    Good the have Mark from Aardenburg posting here.  It’s rather strange to me that these former “Baryta” papers also contained TiO2 as both compound are whitening agents.  I think TiO2 is cheaper as it’s a commodity that is heavily used in the paint and coatings industry.  I wonder if it’s inclusion was done as a way to trim costs.  In any event, it’s good to see the shift to 100% Baryta.

    I’m not a paper maker but wonder at what stage Baryta is applied.  Is it just right after milling and before the ink receptor coating is applied or does the same company that does the coating also apply the Baryta?

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